Secularism an issue here?

That is a really good question, my guess is the answer is and should be no (but I am sure someone else will answer the question more appropriately)...

I was thinking along those lines in the WiserReligion topic a few pages back... sorry to continue to annoy but...

It seems there is an implicit morality with members of this network, an overwhelming spiritual tone ...

At a glance Wiser Earth seems to be an existentialist label/ network: it seems to assert that we make decisions based on what has meaning to us rather than what is rational. It would be easy to argue that believing in the idea of an attainable utopian global society is comforting, but not realistic.

The interesting thing to me is ... that with globalization/ advances in science and technology, our rapidly changing world ... is that our utopian 'wiserearth' global society could actually become attainable.

So the next question is...if the utopia were attained ... than what? What is the Utopia like? How does it work? We are all moving TOWARD it right? Well.... what is it going to be like when we get there? (Not just on this website; but in the real world)

A secular global community would seem to be a pre-requisite right? Most of our current regional and global conflicts are either religion-based or resource-based (or some combination of the two)...

But the problem behind a secular global community as Utopia is illustrated by the existentialist (religious or meaning-based) nature of our WiserEarth movement/ website (and by the NATURE of humanity)...

A secular global community would seem to create more problems than it solves (just look at the consistent anti-government/ anti-establishment philisophical undercurrent of wiserearth members)...

And it would seem that a global community with a religious (or at least not a secular) ethos is better.

So my question from the wiserreligion discussion still stands.... can someone PROVE that wiserearth is not a religious model?

And if you admit that it is... than what happens when we arrive at our Utopia? Wouldn't we undermine our humanity... ? Wouldn't meaning become value-less, wouldn't our differing values (lame ex. cows are sacred in parts of the world, other places mainstream food staple etc.) lose their meaning?

The quest for MEANING is what separates us from other organisms...

working TOWARD a wiserearth is meaningful to us... but the ideal we are working toward seems irrational...

so it seems that working TOWARD a just and sustainable community is akin to a constructive theraputic exercise, an exercise that is spiritual in nature, but un-natural in spirit.

and thus religious...

I could go on, but I would be interested to see if someone can honestly prove

A How our realworld wiserearth ideal could be secular and work (you have to prove that it is secular)

B How our realworld wiserearth ideal could be non-secular and exist without some version of culture assimilation/ destruction ; how could we globalize for sustainability and justice without losing culture after culture in the process?

with all due "respect"...

words like 'respect' and 'justice' are like two criss crossed band aids covered with wildflowers and butteflies over a mortal wound ...

Just leaving it at "just" and "respect" does not give the complexity of the issue/ problem 'justice' or 'respect'.

Forget about the fact that the word "respect" could be easily proved to have different applications/ meanings for different cultures in certain situations of potential conflict of interest... different applications/ meanings based on the differing cultural values/ beliefs/ history...

A great cross cultural story to illustrate the futility of the words respect and justice would be;

Guy A is in love with Girl who is married to Guy B.

Guy A is working class, young and poor -- Guy B is upper middle class, middle aged and rich.

Guy A is so in love with Girl, who returns the love with equal gusto, she really loves him= they are in LOVE with each other. Not a fling, not an indiscretion = but once in a lifetime LOVE.

Guy B discovers the love, he is angry and views it as a mistake/ indiscretion on the part of his young wife = the Girl. He blames Guy A for seducing her, where in truth the Girl seduced Guy A because she was bored with her husband Guy B. But she found him out to be so sensitive and caring, they spoke of wildflowers and butterflies; so she inevitably fell in LOVE with him.

Guy B is a "respect"able man : he has the law, religion, politics, culture on his side.

Guy A is honest and hard working. He is as GOOD as a person could be.

But he is in love with the wrong girl.

Girl is smart, successful and educated, (maybe a talented artist or writer with 3 degrees and a world-wide following).

It seems like there will be an inevitable conflict between Guy A and Guy B, potentially an inevitable conflict between the family group of Guy A against the family group of Guy B etc., that could result in the death of innocent people; a romeo and juliet/ lancelot queniverie scenario... a battle over meaning, over emotion; love.

So I anticipate you might naturally shrug your shoulders and argue that = in our "just and sustainable world created by community" , things will be worked out by the law... the law will be "just" and it will provide the Girl with an option to divorce her husband guy B and elope with guy A to the land of wildflowers and butterflies.

She will have that right; her gender/ class etc. will not matter. She is successful right?

Well, guess what? In the current real world; in 'just' society here in america... chances are: she doesn't have a lawyer/ cultural form of representation that will matter, neither does guy A = they do not have the resources/ connections to get GOOD representation.

So one of two scenarios unfold:

Guy B gets his wife back; she is unhappy, Guy A trys to kill Guy B and get his love; the girl... his love for her has no limit.

In our ficitious idealistic world: girl and guy A get good representation... they win the legal case; off to wildflowers and butterflies with 50% of the divorce settlement.

But you know what? Guy B is not going to let it go. He feels slighted by Guy A, what happened MEANS something to him. His reputation was damaged, he lost his wife; the girl.

So he has Guy A murdered, Guy A's younger brother watches the murder report on tv and grows up with a chip on his shoulder than goes after Guy B's family; cycle of meaning-based violence would start either way.

So than the law would step in right?

Show me a legal system in the world that is not based on money? Show me a model for it... here in the US " justice" = is who you know, how much money you have to get representation, your background etc.

"respect" is abused on the minute from the cop forgetting to turn on his taperecorder to george w bush invading iraq; there is that two-faced sweet sour sense of american corruption in the smile of authority/ power everywhere you look...

So what I am asking of all the designers/ believers of WiserEarth is... Dont just say "Justice/ Respect" etc., dont just use the words -- anyone can use the words --: detail how these things could be actually attained and what they might look like on a universal level...

and how they might look on a universal level and not assimilate/ destroy cultural/ belief differences in the process...

Becuase a lot of injustice has been done in the name of justice (in our most progressive 'free countries') and because a lot of dis-respect has been done in the name of 'respect' (in our most progressive 'free countries')

(There is an implicit morality with those words; not all people/ organizations/ governments operate on the same moral code....)

Please at your convience detail the plan to overcome humanity's " will to power", how you will overcome human nature, how you will overcome emotion, how you will overcome the source and nature of MEANING -- without undermining what makes us human; the quest for meaning.

Because it seems like lots of people are headed toward a utopian heaven; a wiserearth ideal: a heaven on earth -- but the problem is they are envisioning different IDEALS due to cultural/ belief differences...

and if they get there... than what? The quest for the wiserearth was what gave their lives meaning...? so what do they do when they get there?

So the question stands -- if wiserearth is not a religion... please be kind enough to depicit/ explain how the ideal will work, how the heaven on earth will work...? The wiserearth in detail, not with band-aid words...

and for the record... attacking my presentation/ writing style will just undermine the credibility of your vision for a 'just and sustainable world created by community'